1935 LeMans Headlights

[MJC]

Hi All.
I’m still walking around the LM 4 Seater I purchased in February this year trying to work out where to start restoring. I’ve walked around it in both directions and it is getting clearer! I’ve attached a photo of the current headlights on the car which seem to have been converted to take 7 inch “cats eye” lenses. Can anyone tell me what the original lights and lenses would have been? I see pictures of the 1935 models that look like they have 8 inch lights and some have flat glass, some have ribbed glass and some seem to have three metal spokes behind the lenses set at 120 degrees apart. Any assistance with this would be appreciated!
Note that the lights currently look a little cross eyed-that’s just from the car watching me walk around and around it!

[MJC]

Hmmmm. I’ve just read a mikeyr post from earlier that seems to answer my question pretty well. I’ll get back to walking around the car!

[mikeyr]

glad I could make the headlight issue, clear as mud

I went with Lucas mostly because they were available the way I wanted them with the stone guards, I could have waited and found some Rotax somewhere but I am happy. My car was different then your 1935 car though, by 1935 it was ALL Lucas. The 34's are where some cars came out with Rotax and some with Lucas depending on build date and how many Rotax's Singer had left in stock after Lucas bought Rotax. I have seen factory paper saying 34's had Rotax and also later 34's were Lucas, so I went with what I found available. As I said, your car would Lucas and I think the glass would be the U pattern but someone will chime in and correct me I am sure. I would not worry too much about the glass, its safe to assume it was changed over the years. As Brian said on that thread you mentioned, get the lights and drive it (that is kind of what he said anyway, not exactly a exact quote).

[MJC]

Thanks Mike! I’ll start looking at what suppliers are around for the Lucas lights. I hope to start the restoration proper in the new year.

[Phillip]

Hi Michael,

The headlights would almost certainly be Rotax LB140's with the flat Difusa glass. Your car currently has the post-war type used on the A Series Roadster from 1946 to 1949, as well as the Ten and Super Ten. They were used on the MG TC also. These are Lucas and I seem to recall the model was M140, but I'd have to check my parts catalogs. I've worked on a number of 35 LM's amd Sports and all those that could be confirmed as original had Rotax headlights with the flat Difusa glass.

Here's a factory photo used for a very rare Australian market pre-war brochure:

Australian Pre-War Brochure_Nine Le Mans 4 Seater.jpg (54.3 KiB) Viewed 20996 times

And here is a shot from The Autocar roadtest in 1935:

1935 LM_Autocar Roadtest_1.jpg (73.96 KiB) Viewed 20996 times

And a shot of one of the 1935 Candidi team cars with the very tasty period hinged stone guards:

35 LM Headlamps with Stoneguards.jpg (78.91 KiB) Viewed 20996 times

Here's a factory photo of a 1935 Le Mans Coupe:

Headlamps_LB140_LB140EDS.jpg (62.01 KiB) Viewed 20996 times

Finally, here's a factory photo of the early Roadster headlamps which did have the U-shaped pattern in the glass and a more rounded rim. These were used on pre-war R-Series Roadsters and a very few of the first post-war A-Series Roadsters:

Singer Nine Roadster_Headlights.jpg (27.21 KiB) Viewed 20996 times

Hope that helps!

[mikeyr]

Phillip, I really hate to do this, but I am going to have to half-argue with you. I have been talking to light restorers both in the UK and US and they all have said the same thing, there was NO Rotax L (or LB) 140, that is a Lucas part number. I too have seen factory Singer documentation stating Rotax L140, but that part number simply did not exist, I have been told that by many people in the business and can find no reference of it on the web. Also Rotax did not exist after mid-1934 when the acquisition was completed. Now headlights I am not going to argue about, because its very possible Singer had a good stock of Rotax and kept using them after Rotax was gone, knowing Singer's finances, I find that hard to believe but its very possible. I do know the easy part to see in pictures, the headlamp rim changed mid-1934 implying to me that Singer mid-model year changed from Rotax to Lucas as I have seen pics of period 34's with 2 different rims.

I do think it is very odd that Singer would put a Lucas FT-37 spot lamp under Rotax headlamps like in your picture with the very correctly stated "very tasty period hinged stone guards" I can't tell what the headlights are, but the spot is a Lucas FT-37, you can see the bump in the back (a little anyway) that the Rotax spot lamps did not have.

One thing to note, I have been told the U-shaped pattern is superior to the flat difusa for driving at night, so while the flat difusa is original, my car will have the U pattern.

The reason I am only half-arguing is because you have played with the pre-war far longer than me, seen more pre-war than I ever will and I have always differed to you as the absolute authority on what is correct on these cars, so I can't say you are wrong...but...you might be.

[Phillip]

Hi Mike,

Absolutely. There is always room for healthy discussion and Singer was known for buying odd batches of items, but there is no denying what my eyes have seen. Yes, the L at the beginning of the model number denotes Lucas, but I have worked on a number of 1935 Singers sports cars and those that I could be sure had their original lamps were all badged Rotax. It is true that Rotax lamps often had the prefix K. The Singer parts catalogs clearly state Rotax for a number of electrical components over the years, but, interestingly, does not state either Rotax or Lucas for the 1935 model year. Just a part number.

All of the photos I posted both on this thread and the Australian thread are period 1930's and clearly show the flat fronted lamps. My 1936 Le Mans had them as well. I have a photo of it at the dealership brand new just off the boat. That was the main point I was trying to make. This style was used up until Roadster production started.

Now, as whether these lamps were a Lucas design badged as Rotax is another point. They probably were. And if and when Singer started to use Lucas badged lamps later in production is another question. Lucas purchased CAV and Rotax, their two main competitors, and one wonders why they would have fitted a Rotax badge to a Lucas lamp at all. But there you go!

The FT-37 was a Lucas lamp. But consider this; the parts catalog for 1933 Sports shows a Rotax tail lamp, Rotax headlamps and Lucas side lamps. 1934 saw the tail lamp change to Lucas. The dashboard was also a Rotax part.

The hinged stone guards can be fitted to the flat-fronted lamps and the FT37 as you can see in that 'tasty' photo.

I have both the Rotax and the Lucas versions of these headlamps and will have to get them out to make a direct comparison!

Maybe the 'fluted' style is better for driving at night, I'm not sure, the design is basically the same as the earlier type, but every owner can restore the car the way they feel they will most enjoy it and safety should always be a priority of course!

Great to see the restoration moving forward...

[MJC]

Hi Phillip. My apologies for not replying sooner-I wasn’t expecting that there would be anymore discussion on that thread and I haven’t been on the forum for……months! That was a GREAT Australian marketing picture of the 1935 4 seater -mine looks just like it (apart from the headlights!).
I now have a photo of my car taken in 1964 not long before it went into storage and you can see the post war headlights fairly clearly.

I have been able to find a fairly beaten up pair of Lucas L140s (one of which has the solenoid dipping lense) here in Aus -very lucky it seems! I have also ordered a pair of wire lense protectors from the UK so I think the front of the car will be period correct(ish)!
Thanks again to you and Mike for your input!

[telco.2]

This is a very interesting thread! Lucas took over Rotax as has been clearly said, but surplus Rotax items must have been kicking around for some time afterwards. And just to confuse totally...in 1963 I bought a barn find '31 Junior saloon which had been off the road for many years. I expected to find Rotax electrics and I was not disappointed as the dash panel was indeed a Rotax item as was the dynamo cut out. Everything else was ...you've got it Lucas. This included dizzy, dynamo, starter & a full set of matching Lucas head, side & rear lamps! There was no sign of heavy frontal impact in the past so surely it must have been original equipment? If there could be such a mix in 1931 why not in '34 and '35? That's your poser from me for 2022.
Happy New Year everybody and good Singering (whatever label is on your equipment!)