New 4AD Owner, Lots of Questions

[jmtreen]

I am the new owner of a 1953 4AD, passed down to me by my parents, Russ and Connie Treen. The car is in good shape but I'm fighting an overheating issue and have a number of questions regarding the cylinder head and some general supply chain questions. But first off, is there a way to register online for a NASOC membership? The newsletter states that there is online registration available, but I have not ben able to locate it on the website. Perhaps just sending a check to David Green is in order. Is he still the Membership Officer? Is his address in the newsletter still accurate? I will send him another email to confirm.

Now onto the questions:
1. Has anyone ordered a head gasket kit from Kip Motors? It seems a bit expensive at $325 but maybe it's worth it if it comes with all the manifold, valve cover, and side plate gaskets as well. I reached out to them for clarification as to what it included and all they could say is that it included all the gaskets needed for installing the head...no drawings, pictures, or parts list. Are people cutting their own, ordering off eBay, from Australia?

2. Can anyone recommend a source for British Whitworth hardware? Moss Motors seem to have a lot but they don't always list the thread diameter and pitch. The 'where used' information is useless unless I can find a source for cross referencing MG parts to Singer parts. Ideally, I'd like to replace the studs and nuts, etc. when I put the head back on. Has anyone done this and if so, where did you get the hardware? I have all the singer P/N's from the Spare Parts Catalog and can measure the parts for thread diameter and pitch. I'm just struggling to find a supplier that gives specs for the hardware they sell.

3. I am also looking for a spec for the Chain Tensioner Spring which is listed as Plate Ref. 53 on Plate 1 of the Spare Parts catalog. The one on my car disintegrated. I have a few pieces of it so I can measure wire diameter and take a guess at it's ID based on the Tensioner Shaft's OD. Does anyone know it's free length? Or maybe I can measure the length of the shaft when installed and calculate the spring's free length based on 20-30% compression?

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

[mikeyr]

Hi,

Currently there is no way to register for the club online, i have to rebuild that page and change payment system. Dave Green can take a check or paypal for the club. And I am working the registration page...slowly...but working.

Can't help with the head gasket question.

https://britishfasteners.com/ or https://www.britishmetrics.com/# should have everything you need. Pay close attention to the prices, in the end they work out to be about the same but some bolts are more at one and others more at the other. I find when i order a big pile of nuts and bolts it works out to be almost the same. But one bolt might a dollar at one site, and .75 at the other...next bolt will be the other way around and average out.

Search this forum for the chain tensioner, I seem to recall some one posting specs on it before (years ago).

[jmtreen]

Thank you for the hardware links, @mikeyr. I have sent Dave G a check for NASOC membership and am excited to be part of the club. I'll try to post a parts list of the gaskets from the Kip Motors kit when it arrives so others can reference in the future.

Here are some pictures of the engine with the head removed in case anyone is interested. The engine block is pictured with and without the old head gasket installed.

[Gonzalo72]

Hi Mike, thanks for the pictures. I need to do the same job, so I am following your posting closely. Are you going to replace the rings too?

Best,
Gonzalo

[jmtreen]

I wasn't planning on replacing the rings. Is that something I should do, as a matter of course, since I already have the engine apart? I do plan on relplaceing as many of the studs, nuts, and bolts as possible which is why I was asking about a source for Whitworth hardware.

The problem I'm trying to solve is overheating caused by exhaust gas getting into the cooling system. I used a combustion leak detector to determine this. Picture below shows fluid change from blue to green...I didn't bother waiting for it to turn yellow. Also found moisture (no fuel smell) on a couple of the spark plugs. I added some Bar's Head Seal to the coolant which fixed the moisture in the combustion chambers, but not the exhaust in the cooling system.

My original plan was to pull the head and ship it off to an engine machine shop to have the gasket surface and valve seats machined before replacing the head gasket. I met Pat Desmond at the VT British Invasion and he recommended having it checked for cracks as well (Thanks, Pat!). Not having much engine repair experience, I was just going to have the machine shop dismantle the cam, valves, etc. and also gap/adjust them on reassembly.

Since pulling the head, a friend who is a small airplane mechanic has suggested to do some more low dollar trouble shooting to confirm it is in fact the head. His point is that it could be a crack in the engine block or any number of other things that won't be solved by spending big bucks at the machine shop. I disagree slightly, since I will probably get the head and valve seats faced regardless of what the issue turns out to be, but he has offered to help so I'll do it his way. He is also going to show me how to dismantle and reassemble the cam/valves, etc. so that 's a win also.

So now the plan is to replace the gaskets (since gaskets are relatively inexpensive compared to having the shop re-work the head assembly), check compression of the cylinders, pressure test the engine, and see if there are leaks.

I'll keep you posted.

[mikeyr]

check the water pump also. These old cars can have badly corroded water pump housings, yeah they spin fine but with corrosion can have too many cavities between the impeller and housing causing water "leaks" internally, not a real leak to the outside where it would be visible but where water ends up not being pushed around. Rings are your choice, I have done both pulled heads and not done rings and of course done full rebuilds, you know how well it was running before so only you can answer that. I will say these motors are so low compression ratios, that rings don't seem to wear like a higher compression ratio motor. They seem to keep running like the old tractors did (and still do).

[jmtreen]

That's a good point, Mike. I don't really know how well the coolant is flowing if at all. I can tell you that I found a bunch of sunflower seeds floating in the radiator reservoir, though. I'm guessing the car must have been stored at some point w/ no coolant and the cap off, allowing a critter to get in there. I pulled the radiator out and flushed it, clearing a lot more seeds and debris. I even found more seeds in the water jacket when I pulled the head off.

I can also tell you that after I flushed the system and added more coolant the engine temp started to rise above 190F. With the engine still running, we removed the radiator cap to relieve some pressure, resulting in coolant splashing everywhere of course, but also resulting in the temp dropping back down to 190F. Maybe there was an air bubble in the jacket preventing the coolant from flowing and the temp dropped back down after the air bubble cleared.

Is there a way to test how well or if the coolant is flowing without out dismantling the water pump? My thought was to screw a barb fitting into where the temp sensor is installed in the outlet pipe (pic below), attach a hose, run the engine and see what flows out. Is there a better way?

A quick Google search tells me to drain the radiator, replace the coolant, and note if the level drops as the pump works to push coolant to other parts of the system.

[mikeyr]

Cool, one of the lucky ones. You have a twin carburetor water inlet manifold with thermostat, the single carb model that you have did not originally have those and took forever to warm up. Since you have a t-stat, i assume you have checked to see it is working.

If the radiator is full, you can usually see the water moving in the radiator when you have good flow. It wont be moving a lot, but you can see a direction of flow.

[jmtreen]

There was no thermostat installed so I’m guessing it was taken out at some point in order to try and fix the overheating issue I am now troubleshooting. I’ll put one back in after I fix the exhaust leak.

What I haven’t figured out is how the thermostat is held in the outlet pipe. There’s a seat for the thermostat but no apparent means of keeping it from floating around in there. Is there a snap ring or press fit ring that I’m missing?

[mikeyr]

Yes a snap ring

[Steve1953]

I am also a new owner of a 1953 4 AD. I have some questions as well.

- I will be in the Atlanta Ga area next week. Are there any owners of a 4AD in the Atlanta area? Or anywhere between GA and NY. I would like to visit and see your car. My number is 518 522 9968.

- I have the top bows but they were never installed and there is no top. I would like some photos from inside the car to show me how the top bows were configured on the car. I have a stud mounted on each side of back seat. I assume that is where the largest bow was bolted on. Not certain how the rest hook on. So any photos would be appreciated. Either text me photo or email to taxingsteve@yahoo.com

- How would I locate a crank for the car? Any suggestions.

Thank you for your help

Steve

[Steve1953]

I am also a new owner of a 1953 4 AD. I have some questions as well.

- I will be in the Atlanta Ga area next week. Are there any owners of a 4AD in the Atlanta area? Or anywhere between GA and NY. I would like to visit and see your car. My number is 518 522 9968.

- I have the top bows but they were never installed and there is no top. I would like some photos from inside the car to show me how the top bows were configured on the car. I have a stud mounted on each side of back seat. I assume that is where the largest bow was bolted on. Not certain how the rest hook on. So any photos would be appreciated. Either text me photo or email to taxingsteve@yahoo.com

- How would I locate a crank for the car? Any suggestions.

Thank you for your help

Steve

[jmtreen]

I posted a question regarding rocker arms in another thread but wanted to add it here for continuity. Link to other thread is here: https://forum.singercars.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1782

I ended up bringing the cylinder head to a local engine machine shop to have it checked for cracks, have to valve seats machined, the gasket surface measured for flatness and machined as needed, etc. The machinist immediately pointed out the the adjustment screws for the valve rockers were showing different amounts of exposed thread and could be indicative of worn cam lobes. As it turns out, the cam was only worn slightly and the problem was the valve rockers. The surface that follows the cam lobes are significantly worn on a few of them as shown in the pictures below.

Does anyone have a resource for purchasing these or have any they want to sell? Alternatively, does anyone know if these parts were used on other British Cars of the same era or are they specific to Singers? A helpful owner on the other thread suggested having them reworked, which I am looking into as well.