headlights, 34 9 LM

[mikeyr]

Ok, time for some headlights (Yeah, I know car won't be ready for a few years). What type headlight did these cars come with ???

I have a pair of rather beat up M140's on my LM they are both dipping which I know is wrong, only the nearside should dip so there is work to do on the reflectors to make then non-dipping and accept modern bulbs, I know this can be done. Both are dented, damaged, but glass is unbroken.

I have the opportunity to buy near perfect L140's for about the same price as getting the M140's restored and re-chromed. These were new manufacture with Halogen bulbs, no dipping reflector. Made in the UK by some company (not Lucas) about 8 years ago, I have seen them and they are really nice.

So, what the heck is a L140 and a M140, I can't find references to M140 when I google it but I can clearly see the stamp that says M140 on my lights. I have 2 buckets that say M140, so I know they existed, is there a difference in shape, size or anything else between these 2. The lamps I have are not the ones that came with my car, I purchased them in the UK when I was there visiting Dave Hardwick (long time ago).

If I am going to have mine restored, I can wait until the car is closer to being finished, but the L140's are available now through a friend and the price is the same as my quote to have mine restored. The only real difference is the new ones don't say Lucas on the underside since they are new manufacture and that would not bother me.

[jeans_old_man]

Hi Mike,
The lamps listed in my 1935 parts list are L140. The Lucas catalogue of 1939 specifies L140 or LB140. The 'B' specifies Biflex which refers to a vertical bar across the front of the reflector which supports a medalion in front of the bulb. The glass was flat - domed types would be LD140 or LDB140. This can be verified by looking at the historic photos on the forum.

I bought mine from the Austin Reproduction Supplies Ltd who offer choice of flat, dimpled glass or domed. They currently are priced at £900 per pair on their web site. I tried Halogen bulbs with twin filaments but there seemed little difference between dip and main beam. I now have LED bulbs fitted where half the LEDs turn off in dip mode and I am very pleased with them. You cannot see the bulbs with the dimpled glass.

For your information, Mike I had a quote for a pair of LBD165S for the 1.5 of £2940.

[Phillip]

According to my files, headlamps were 8 inch Rotax LB140 and LB140EDS. Chrome plated shell and rim, flat Difusa glass, silvered reflectors. A slotted knurled screw at the bottom of the rim held it in place. Base plates and mounting washers were generally black enamel. For 1935 my Lucas catalog lists L140 or LB140. These 'projectors' as Lucas referred to headamps, were sold branded as both Rotax and as Lucas, but Singer part books refer to Rotax for lighting sets and wiring harnesses. although sidelamps were Lucas 1130 and the ST38 tail lamp started as Rotax but became Lucas.

LB140 was the non-dipping unit fitted to the off-side and the LB140EDS (Electric Dipping System) was fitted to the nearside. This lamp had the solenoid operated reflector. When the lamps were switched to dip, the off-side lamp switched off and the nearside lamp dipped by having the solenoid pull the reflector down.

These lamps seem to have been used on the Nine sports cars from 1933 to 1937.

Here are two examples in period photos:

Headlamps_LB140_LB140EDS.jpg (62.01 KiB) Viewed 6077 times

1936%20LM%20on%20SIMMS_Badge%20Bar%20Badge.jpg (69.72 KiB) Viewed 6077 times

[tvdwerf]

Are these glasses allowed in the UK with the MOT or road inspection?
I know I have to put not original reflectors and glasses when I have to bring my car to the checkpoints (Dutch RDW)...
And official they can stop me on the road, but I am not very afraid for that.

[mikeyr]

Ok, so the ones I have are the wrong glass, I have a U shaped pattern in the lenses. So new lenses at minimum.

What is the difference between Lucas L140 and Rotax ? I have paperwork that says for my car the correct light is Rotax L140, but online I don't find Rotax L140, I find other part numbers, like 624, what is the difference ? for example, I assume that the medallion on top of the bucket does not say Lucas King of the Road, but not found a picture yet. Or is there no medallion on the Rotax ? is the bucket same shape ?

I guess what I am asking is, can I get Lucas's and put in Difusa glass and no one will know the difference ? or is there a difference in the Rotax shape, badging, etc. Maybe, I should just get what Brian suggested above, although I do want stone guards (they look cool ).

As to the legal question, here is in the USA if it is original equipment, it is legal. I only. have to equip the car as it was originally and its legal, although maybe not safe like with only one tail/brake light, no rear turn signals. Same with the electronic dipper, would not be legal today but if the car came with it, its legal, again maybe not as safe as it should. be. There is a 1911 Locomobile that the owner drives around town a lot, I see it at least once a month, usually more often and he has no tail, no brake lights because it was legal in 1911, but that is USA would not know about other countries.

[Phillip]

The "U shape" lenses also usually have the rounded edge rims, not the sharp edge rims.

Lucas absorbed CAV and Rotax, so the only main difference in the lamps of the mid-30's is the medallion. Both Lucas and Rotax medallions are available on-line. I own both Lucas and Rotax versions of these lamps and they look identical. Might be an interesting exercise to compare both side-by-side to see what the maker's stamps are. Although the Singer parts book lists a Rotax ST-38 tail lamp as the OEM part, I have never seen an ST-38 with a Rotax badge. There was an S-40 Rotax fitted to the '33 Sports, but that was a different beast.

The dip and switch system for LHD would be the reverse of the UK. The dipped lamp is always nearest the kerb and the light nearest on-coming traffic goes out. I have this system on my LM, but use twin filament bulbs in both lamps at present. If I ever re-do the wiring, I'll go back to the dip and switch and single tail lamp as Quebec has the same 'original equipment' rules as California. In the UK and I assume all European counties, I believe cars have to conform to current safety regulations for lighting.

Nothing wrong with fitting two ST-38's at the back with LED stop / tail / turn signals integrated into them, plus dual amber/white LED's in the 1130 side lamps, plus twin filament bulbs in the headlamps. Certainly discreet and better for safety.

[mikeyr]

Thank you Phillip.

So my headlamps are the wrong ones and I will hunt down the right ones. It may be as simple as changing the medallion and new ring along with new glass, but I will figure it out now that I know what I have is wrong. Many other things to get done first on the car, just a thing to add to the "find" list.

Phillip, do you know if the Difussa flat lens will work with the round edged rim or is there a difference ?

I have sent off a email to the Austin people that Brian referenced since that should work fine but I want stone guards.

[jeans_old_man]

I wouldn't get too hung up about your headlamp glass. There are plenty of owners with the curved glass with the U shaped ripples. It is very hard these days to prove what was fitted originally.

As you have said previously if you are building a car to drive rather than a museum piece it is necessary to make concessions to suit modern driving conditions. This includes things such as turn signals, two headlamps and two rear lamps. Turning without clear indicators is suicidal and single lamps are not allowed in UK. We have a good deal of leeway though, as historic vehicles do not have to undergo the yearly Ministry of Transport test.

Stone guards are available from https://www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/

[tvdwerf]

To drive with trafficators and no other direct visible lamps is easy,
Use a DB10 style flasher unit and the brake lights for this. At the front you can use the small lights on the wings.
I saw people who had the original single lamp on the back, in combination with some small working lamps on the rear bumper.

My plan is also to use the U-shape lens on a 236 Lucas lamp, but official not allowed. But because when I am not driving by night, this is not a problem they don't see it .

[mikeyr]

so after more research, I have found that you can not have the hinged stone guards on the Rotax, the bezel screw is where the hinge would be. You can of course install Stoneguards that are held on by thumbscrews.

I am going with the Lucas for my car, they are available and look great. And the FT37 is matching. U shape in the lens but that is ok with me the stoneguards will hide the lens anyway. As Brian said, I am building this to be more of a driver than garage queen. Of course it will be driven less than my 4ADT was since freeway speeds are a problem with the LM but I am changing rear end gear ratios to help. The Lucas lights are correct for the later 1934's I am told, just that the early ones had Rotax, so guess what, no one in this country (USA) will EVER know the difference.

As to the back of the car, I will have 2 of the pork pies PLUS a LED stop ring in the spare wheel. They make them for Jeeps that carry a spare on the back and I will have that, not very visible until you put the brakes on. Something like this...

Onto more important things on the car, like putting it together . Have a bunch of parts coming from the UK and we started work full time in office on Sept. 1 so back to some form of schedule but less garage time. It was both nice and not nice to be working from home last year and half.