Nine Roadster Wanderlust

The 4A, 4AB, 4AC, 4AD cars, including the SM 1500 Roadster and SMX
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knightoftheshire
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Nine Roadster Wanderlust

Post by knightoftheshire »

Our roadster is starting to develop wanderlust when motoring about. Lots of play in the wheel, and If we hit a bump, we receive tremendous front end shake. Any suggestions as how to remedy this problem.
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Peter McKercher
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Post by Peter McKercher »

Terry
Take a look at http://www.singercars.com/4ax/steering.html which is found through the Technical page drop down menu. It's a good bet your steering box needs some attention and this gives a good walk through on what is required.
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Paul Bouchard
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Post by Paul Bouchard »

Terry,

My A series has the same problem. True that the steering box is a possible suspect, as could the links and kingpins (to a lesser degree).

Another possibility are the suspension bushes. My car bounced and rattled like a (insert favorite mother-in-law joke here). I finally decided to change the bushes. Well turns out that at one front-end suspension point I had no bushes left!!!

After the bushes were replaced the car felt much better. I still have some play in the wheel which no doubt is from the steering box, but at least there are no more clankitty rattles.

So while you are under there checking out the steering box, look at the suspension too.

Paul
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GeneA
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Front suspension shakes Part 1

Post by GeneA »

Like Paul, I overhauled much of the front suspension on my 1949 Roadster. The suspension bushings, front and rear might be available locally from a place that makes leaf springs as found on trucks, etc. That's where I got mine when I had new rear springs made--they supplied bushing for the front as well as rear.

I bought King pin rebuild kits from Bill Haverly years ago and had a machine shop do the reaming, then I reassembled them.

I cleaned out my steering box and had a machine shop install new bushings which I purchased from a local bearing shop. R & R ing the bushings is tricky, as one of the bushings is staked in place (can't remember which one) just look for the pin holding it in place. Also one of the bushings has a cut out to clear the nut part of the "worm and nut" Given all this, I again had a machine shop do it for me. I also used a modern seal at the shaft end where it leaves the box, instead of the rope type stuff used originally. I can dig up the seal number if anyone needs it.
Gene Abbondelo
1949 Roadster
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GeneA
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shakes part 2

Post by GeneA »

this pinion seal is not a perfect fit, but ok. Lastly I used that Penrite semi-liquid steering box oil and am happy with it. Doesn't seem to leak out like 80/90 weight oil.

The gist of all this is that rebuilding the link pins, steering box, and leaf springs oh, and also the lever shocks (World Imports in Wisconsin) and new tires (Universal tire in Pa.) made all the difference in the world as far as handling is concerned. Not cheap, though, Not counting new tires, I bet I have spent about 800-1000 dollars in parts and labor (thank God my wife doesn't read this list!)

Gene Abbondelo
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Phillip
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Post by Phillip »

As a Roadster owner for many years ( two A's and a 4A) I have to agree with Paul and Gene on this one.

Terry's woes seem to indicate a changes in caster and camber. Basically the same issues that Paul suffered. This would mean taking a look at those suspension bushes, especially the rubber top Harris bushes that go into the chassis. Once loose, worn or contaminated by oil, they can turn into crust or mush. They rely on proper tightening of the shackle pin nuts to compress the rim of the 'top hat' design to keep the springs in line. Springs can also settle and Paul re-angled his to good effect also.

The steering box is pretty marginal from the get-go and slack is to be expected from new. As the link posted suggests, the culprit is often the brass nut. My dad solved this problem when, at the age of 14, I undertook my first Roadster rebuild under his exacting gaze. A slit down the length of the nut, plus the fitting of two allen key grub screws meant I had an adjustable steering nut. The threads were cleaned through and it worked a treat. By the way, I have never seem an aluminum A or 4A steering box!

I can certainly endorse Gene's mention of the Penrite steering lube. It's just great!

Could be worse, Terry...you could have the '32-'35 Nine transverse steering set-up! :wink:
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Paul Bouchard
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Post by Paul Bouchard »

Gene,

I would definately be interrested in the seal number... but do not take apart your steering box to get it!

Paul
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Post by Peter McKercher »

You are correct Phil. There are no aluminum cast steering boxes. While the web team, in its Editorial capacity, endeavours to synthesize information from a variety of sources and provide the best possible on line technical resources to NASOC members, the occasional error from submissions creeps in. As print Editor, you of course deal with the same.
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GeneA
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Paul & others: steering box pinion seal #

Post by GeneA »

I kept the box the seal came in, so I can easily check the brand & number this weekend and get back to the list. It was pretty inexpensive, about
$4.00-5.00 US ($3,000 Canadian) :lol:
Gene Abbondelo
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Post by mikeyr »

ok ok, the word aluminium has been removed. That page was given to me but I probably should have caught that error 7 years ago when the page first went up. I apologize for the error (thank goodness it was a minor one) Now, back to Terry's problem please.

This is GOOD stuff, this is why the board was created to get technical information out there and keep the cars on the road. I know Terry had some issues about the new board and since he has not yet voted on his preference for the new style or old style of bulletin board/forum, lets keep it on subject and get his car on the road.
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Peter McKercher
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Post by Peter McKercher »

Thanks Mike.

Terry - Obviously there is a combination of things to look at. The bushings will definitely contribute to the rattling and juddering effect, but don't be too quick to discount the steering box. I rebuilt them on both my SM and Nine Sports and it made a significant difference, particularly on my 9 Sports which tracks beautifully, especially down the Mountain Road at Stowe. Phil, if yours is giving you trouble, you should perhaps look at the silent blocs in the front springs and chassis if you have already attended to the box.

Remember of course, the steering on both of these models is a far cry from rack and pinion and there will always be some play at the steering wheel as noted in the above referenced technical write-up.

Peter
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GeneA
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Paul and list: Steering box oil seal #

Post by GeneA »

Here is the steering box pinion shaft oil seal I used--this fit my 1949 steering box--not sure it's the same for later boxes, but probably it is.

CR (Chicago Rawhide) 8624 oil seal. Another number found on the box was: CRW1 R

Gene

Hope this message gets through to the list--its snowing inside my computer--I expect it to short-out shortly, or shortly short out. :lol:
Gene Abbondelo
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Paul Bouchard
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Post by Paul Bouchard »

Gene,

Thanks for the info. It seems to be snowing here too, so I will take advantage of this Winter Wonderland to get some work done on the steering box!

Take care & Merry Christmas!

Paul
Paul Bouchard

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1948 A Series Roadster
1947 Super Ten Saloon
1935 Le Mans Super Speed Model

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Paul Bouchard
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Steering Box

Post by Paul Bouchard »

Hmmmm....

I have 2 spare steering boxes at home (box #1 and box #2). Both are in rough shape in different areas and I can probably make one out of the two. So, with all this talk of steering, I thought that I would take a closer look at them.

I used the 9A Parts Catalogue (plate 9) as my guide to the bits and their descriptions.

On box #1, someone had added a grease nipple (can I say grease on this board?) to the box end. I guess that this was an attempt by a frustrated Singer owner to get some well intentionned lubrication into this rather awkward area. Problem with that is getting the lubrication to the outer bushing! Grease, by nature, does not flow too well and with the tight clearances would have to be pumped in at great pressure to get everywhere... Small problem here is that this is not a closed system and any extra grease would simply fill up the steering collumn.

As I disected the boxes, I noticed that on the Rocker Shaft (can I say rocker on this board?) on box #2 definately showed signs of wear on one side. Also, the bushings for box #2 were different than those from box #1. Box #2's bushings (probably replacement ones) lacked the spiral groove on the inner face that would allow for lubrication (not grease) to travel from the inner bushing to the outer one. Lucky for box #2's owner, the wear in the rocker shaft would allow the specified SAE 90 oil to flow through all to easilly.

Another difference was discovered on the bronze main nut (can I say main on this board?). Each has a circular metal ring that fits into the appropriate fitting on the rocker shaft. One ring turned freely in its socket and the other did not. I have no idea on which one is correct.

By the way... the diagram on plate 9 does not show the small ball bearing that fits into the dimple on the rocker shaft. Pressure on the ball bearing by the adjsting screw (and lock nut) stops longitudinal movement of the rocker shaft (I hope that I spelled that right) and is the only adjustment in the whole works!

I will jot all of this down, take some pictures and make an artcle for the News.

Post on the board if you have any further thoughts - suggestions or woes.

Paul
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1948 A Series Roadster
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1935 Le Mans Super Speed Model

Just enjoying the ride.
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Post by Phillip »

Peter,

I don't understand the comments abou my steering. I don't have any problems with my LM steering, which is a completely different design to yours.

In 1936 the steering of the Nine sports cars was changed to a fore-and-aft system to correct a lot of the earlier problems encountered with the weak transverse system used up until then. The box is larger and much better supported. The steering is quick and light, especially when the kingpins are in good shape and the caster/camber is correct. I rebuilt the steering on Baby Blue and find it excellent. There is still slack at the wheel ,but that is how they are.

There are no silent block bushes in the underslung chassis either. Phospor-Bronze bushes were used, with a grease nipple fitted to each. I replaced all of these, which were knackered from racing, and the chassis tightened up nicely.

Assisting Terry is the issue here anyway and Paul's comments are excellent, covering the A series box and it's internals in good detail.

Neglect doesn't help these 'A' boxes, either. The oil filler is a hole halfway up the shaft and you can only dribble oil down it like on a bicycle hub. A lot of people either didn't know this or found it a frustrating chore. Some get converted to a grease nipple but this doesn't work at all. The grease doesn't circulate. I found, as Gene mentions, that Penrite oil added whilst the cover plate is off is the best way to go. A modern lip seal transforms the leaky end of the shaft too, aided by Penrite's gooey nature.

So, Terry, in a sense everyone is correct...you'll probably find going over the whole system will yield the best results. It's certainly possible that all of the components are worn in some way, given the car's age and Paul's discoveries show how bad a neglected box can get. Springs also settle and the rubber bushes decay leaving the whole front end to flop around. Again, Paul's experiences show how this can transform the steering and handling.

We're confident that you'll find the problem(s) and have the Red Roadster rolling sweetly again.

Happy Holidays!
Your Friendly Canadian Pre-War Singer Specialist, Collector & Historian,
Editor & Pre-War Registrar & Canadian Contact -NASOC
Singer Enthusiast for over 40 Years.
'28 Senior, '33 & '34 Sports, '36 Le Mans SS & Bantam
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