4AD Singer Bleeding Brakes

[Stephen]

Hi, my car has been on the road for a couple of months and still have a few teething problems that I am gradually getting on top of ..
One major issue is bleeding the brakes, no matter what I do the pedal is spongy....
I started off bleeding them with my wife pumping the pedal, while I bled the brakes, still spongy..
then I put a one man brake bleeder which is connected to the compressor, air came out but not enough .. still spongy..
I then hooked a pressure bleeder up and blew the top of the reservoir sending brake fluid over the firewall ( cleaned up ok with soapy water).. because we do not have the correct cap to fit the brake fluid reservoir.. still spongy..
I then jacked the front of the car up, put it on stands and left it overnight to try and get any air in the system out,.. I bled the brakes with the car up, and a few bubbles came out,.. but still spongy..

Is there a secret to bleeding a 1952 Singer 4 AD brake system .. the lines are the original, with re-sleeved (in stainless steel), master cylinder and front brake cylinders, with new flexible brake hoses and new piping between each wheel cylinder..

The car stops with a lot of pressure on the pedal, but the other 4AD brake pedals that I have tested are as hard as a rock ..
Any help would be appreciated ..
Stephen

[bitsobrits]

Stephen,

You have disconnected the brake rod to the rear mechanical brakes in order to isolate the hydraulic system, yes? If not, you are likely not getting a full stroke of the M/C. I found I was able to use an improvised lever to actuate the M/C while I operated the bleeder screws myself.

[Stephen]

Hi Steve .. Thank you for the response,.. no I did not have the mechanical brakes disconnected .. I will try again tomorrow with them disconnected .. thank you for the info ..
A few pics of my car ..
[img=http://s22.postimg.org/43586j9x9/001.jpg]

[img=http://s22.postimg.org/4ighzjvul/002.jpg]

[img=http://s22.postimg.org/46z1msfel/003.jpg]

[img=http://s22.postimg.org/tag46sd19/004.jpg]

Stephen

[50's car buff]

Stephen: Very nice looking car nice job restoring the vehicle. I have a request, not about brakes, could you take s couple of pictures of how the carpet attaches near the threshold or if you have a carpet pattern that would be even better.
Thanks, Louis

[Stephen]

Hi Lois, Thank you, I disconnected the rod to the back brakes just in front of the rear axle, ( as suggested) and re-bled the brakes ..
with the rear brake rod disconnected I found that the brake pedal went straight to the floor and no amount of pumping or bleeding would make a pedal, so we bled them the best I could and reconnected the back brake rod, we then had a pedal, not a good one, and only slightly better than before ..
I jacked the car up and while my wife pressed on the brake pedal I tested each wheel and they held firm ,.. still not a fantastic brake pedal like I I am used to in the other classic cars I own, but at least I can stop, provided I have plenty of warning !!..

I made the carpet template out of brown paper and have since tossed it out,.. if you have the seats out, all you have to do is put the sheet of paper on the floor and trace along the edges, leaving cuts to put under the seat ..
On mine, where the threshold is, the carpet just sits on top.
I have glued the carpet up near the accelerator pedal and along the clutch housing, the rest of the carpet has some round head upholstery tacks in various locations .

The reason for gluing and tacking the carpet is that when driving and operating the clutch pedal, the carpet would bunch up and slide around on the glossy painted wood floor, this caused problems driving ..

I have seen a 4AD and a 4AD Singer with carpet glued on to the floor and down the side of the threshhold, whereas I opted just to put mine on top the same as Kabu .. here's his web site, it is a great site and all Singer restores should be looking at it.
http://www.guru-group.fi/~kabu/index.ph ... &Itemid=61

I have not included photos of mine, as there is little to see, the carpet just sits on top.

I will be going to our Local Singer Xmas function this Sunday, and provided the cars are there, and PROVIDED I remember, I will get some photos for you of the carpet layout in the Singers that have them covering the side of the threshold..

Check out Kabu's site..
Regards
Stephen

[kabu]

Hi,

First about the brakes; I did not have similar problems with bleeding the brakes. I managed to get them working properly with normal bleeding procedure without disengaging the rear brake rod. I would not call them rock solid but very comparable to other non assisted brakes on other vintage cars I have driven. I did initially have problems on uneven braking but after further adjustment on the front brakes and just sheer use, they are now working very evenly, apparently it took a while for the brake shoes and linings to properly seat themselves. One possible cause for spongy brakes are aged brake hoses that stretch under pressure.

And then about the carpets; The original carpet does not cover the gearbox, there was a separate rubber molding covering the gearbox but as that is unobtainable nowadays, many, like me, opt for covering the gearbox with carpet as well. The door thresholds have a beading nailed on the floor. The beading has a 3/8" rubber tube inside the upholstery vinyl. This is original setup as far as I know, my car had these still in place even though all original carpets had been lost or replaced. I have used this type os carpet fasteners to hold the otherwise loose carpets in place ( http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/c-50-carp ... eners.aspx )

I added a few new pictures to the Carpet section of my Singer project gallery. The threshold beading is shown here:
http://www.guru-group.fi/~kabu/componen ... 999542.jpg

[Stephen]

Hi Pekka .. Thank you for the info on the brakes ..
I renewed both braked hoses when initially doing the brakes about 2 years ago, but today I had reason to take the toe board out, because when the motor revved,the torque ,made it just hit the toe board in a couple of places, where the gearbox cutout is, so I took it out and shaved a bit off,... But when I took the toe board off I noticed the the brake pedal was hitting the edge of the front floor,.. so I have planed that edge down as well, and now it clears the floor. ..
I will bleed the brakes again to morrow and see what happens,.. with the extra travel in the master cylinder it may just force the air out.
Will let you know.
Thanks for the carpet info as well it helps me as well and I know Lois will be grateful..
Regards
Stephen

[Stephen]

Did not make any difference .. so will just have to live with a spongy brake pedal and hope the air in the system will work it's way up to the bleeder nipples.
As Pekka said ,.. maybe after running around in the car for a few months it may sort itself out ..
Stephen

[Stephen]

Hi Lois .. here are three different Singers with three different carpet threshold fastening methods ..

[img=http://s23.postimg.org/msb5ta7c7/003.jpg]

[img=http://s23.postimg.org/kp0qlm7jb/007.jpg]

[img=http://s23.postimg.org/nyf5s2vmv/009.jpg]

I think Pekkas is the best method ..

Hope this helps
Stephen

[50's car buff]

Stephen: Thanks for the carpet pictures, I agree that Pekkas is the best, but the 1st one on the list looks pretty good also.
Louis

[Stephen]

Hi Lois .. yes the first photo looks good, it is a 4 AB fully restored, but not to factory specification, I believe it has a Datsun gearbox, and a lot of other non Singer additions to the car, suspension, motor, interior seats etc ..
But from the outside no one would know ..
Good luck with your restoration ..
Stephen