Singer (9) Engine identification?

[jalye]

Hello, (from New Zealand)

I have just discovered this most useful site - top marks to the organisers! I am now wondering if anyone can help me to
identify the engine in my Singer.
I purchased the car only a few months ago from Christchurch (NZ) - just before the earthquake destroyed much of the city including the showroom the car was in!! It is registered as a 1936 Le Mans which it is not. Having previously owned and restored a '36 LM speed model I know those cars very well. This is a "special" built on a '37 bantam chassis. It is the engine I am not sure of.
It is bigger than the LM9 and without the alloy sump and timing case. I would have thought it to be either a later Bantam or a 4A engine except that in all my Singer books and owners manuals these engines have a downdraught Solex carb where as this has a sidedraught SU, which is original equipment. There is no identifying number "9" on the cylinder block. The engine number is 6115H or 611511 and the chassis number is C11035. Unfortunately, the person who built the car in 1995 died only a short time after it was finished, so, no info there!
Can anyone help with an ID? Knowing what model engine I have is a big advantage when it comes to getting the proper spare parts.

Thanks,
John Lye
Lower Hutt NZ

[mikeyr]

First: welcome to the Singer site
Second: Nice car

And third: I checked through my stash of pictures and I don't find any Singer motor manifolds that look like that so I can't help but I am sure our pre-war registrar will identify it in 0.3 seconds when he sees the pics.

[jalye]

Thanks Mike - FYI there is a 1934 1.5 litre Le Mans 4seater for sale here in NZ
at present - in restored condition and only $nz 40,000.00 - aprox $us 32,000.00
not too bad I think! Sadly, there are no pix available to show you...

[mikeyr]

too bad because I would LOVE pics along with any other info

[Phillip]

Hi John,

First off, I hope things are recovering down in NZ, especially down around Christchurch where I remember spending some great times with Singer friends like Gary Thompson and Ian Goldingham. I hope everyone is OK! Such a terrible tragedy!

What a really cool Special you have! My guess is that the engine is an early 1074cc 3 bearing unit introduced when the 972cc was phased out in the late Bantams. The earlier 972cc engines were fitted with a side-draught Solex carb and I suspect the 1074cc Bantam Saloon engines carried this over for a while pre-war. The '39 R Series Roadster was the first fitted with the down-draught SU, which was carried over in the post-war A Series Roadster from 1946 to 1949. With the introduction of the 4A, the carb was switched to a down-draught Solex.

HRG made a twin-carb tubular manifold for this engine.

Hope that helps!

PS: The 1.5 sounds a really good deal in this day and age when Nines are fetching $30,000.00 to $40,000.00USD in European auctions! Pictures? Yes please!

[jalye]

Hi Philip,

Thanks for the compassionate thoughts about Christchurch - my home town. They had another big aftershock yesterday - a 5.3 which caused considerable new damage but no loss of life. You mentioned some familar names. Ian Goldingham is an old friend and colleague of mine and the purchaser of my 1936 Le Mans speed model some 20 years ago!!

Thanks also for the info re the Singer engine. I suspected what you have told me, and that the SU carb is a later fitting suggested by the conversion from horizontal to vertical manifold attachment. [Note to self - look for an HRG twin carb manifold - although, didn't they have a cross flow head!] The reason I had doubts about the engine I have in my car is that it goes so danm well. Having had the Le Mans speed model I expected a Bantam 9 to be much more pedestrian, however, this one goes much better and I was begining to think it had a larger capacity Singer engine in it. The man who built the car was by reputation a very capable engineer so perhaps he breathed on it. The only non Singer part on the car is the gearbox which is a Triumph Herald unit - that probably helps a bit as you don't have to count to 10 when changing from first to second gears!

I appreciate your helpful response...

[Paul Bouchard]

Very curious, very curious indeed!

It is a 1074 that is for sure. The interesting thing that I saw was that you have a SU Petrol pump on the bulkhead... the A and 4A had a mechanical pump just below the distributor (it is actually driven by a cam on the distributor/oil pump drive shaft).

Does your engine have that casting? It may very well have been blocked off with a metal plate.

Thanks!

Paul

[Phillip]

Hi John,

Very concerned to here that Christchurch continues to suffer from aftershocks. Glad to hear no-one was hurt. Are these the most powerful earthquakes that NZ has experienced since the big one in the '30's that flattened Napier?

Amazing to hear that you had Ian's LM before he did! I saw the car, along with his wife's Sunbeam in that wonderful billiard hall he had rescued and converted into a garage. He and I also share an interest in Lea-Francis cars, as my Dad had a 14HP saloon back in the UK. Say hi to him for me when you see him next. I have very fond memories of our visit wit him.

As Paul mentions, your engine is certainly the 1074cc engine as used in the Roadsters; R, A and 4A. It can be made to go quite well. I'll dig out and post the photos of the engine our friend Jim Keniston is building for his car. Twin carbs, banana brunch manifold, raised compression and a water pump. Pretty much to HRG spec. In Jim's case, he started with a Super ten engine, which had a slightly larger capacity. Perhaps your engine is one of those. They are very similar.

[Phillip]

Here are some shots of Jim Keniston's' Super Super Ten' engine...

Hot Rod Ten Engine_1.jpg (71.66 KiB) Viewed 10017 times

Hot Rod Ten Engine_2.jpg (69.11 KiB) Viewed 10017 times

As can be seen, it is virtually the same externally as the Nine 1074cc engine.

Jim has basically upgraded it to HRG spec with twin carbs, banana branch manifold, electric fuel pump and a water pump.

Internally there are Mini pistons and everything is balanced.

[jalye]

Thanks for this....

Looks like a very nice engine. I am particularly interested in the manifold. I have been looking for pictures of the HRG twin carb setup for the 1074cc 9hp engine but without success. This will give me something to contemplate!

Cheers
John Lye

[ringtrev]

Hi john nice looking car anyd well put together ,in answer to your dating of engine the number 6115H fits with 1939 + series 9hp block,a sample number in Aust shows 4616H as 1939 thenumbers after the war went to A prefix for the 9 and B for the 10hp,can't help with chassis number...sorry......hope the ground has stopped moving for you guys eh......cheers trev

[jalye]

Thanks to all above for very informative information and photographs....