Le Mans tools and tool deck

For now, I lumped all the pre-war cars together, I would LOVE for there to be enough demand to split it into groups (hint...hint, post here about your pre-war Singer)
casadecabra
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:11 pm
First Name: David
Location: Andalucia, Spain

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by casadecabra »

Hello David (aka cdk84) et al

Sorry for my delayed response; I've only just caught up with the forum. Give me a week or so and I'll do my best to address your queries. One problem here in the south of Spain at the moment is that my workshop reaches 90+°F by about 9.30am which does tend to slow one down.

Best wishes
Dave Bayliss (too many Davids!)
DarcyG
Posts: 186
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First Name: Darcy

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by DarcyG »

I am rebuilding my car at present and from everything I have learned the top is ply under the aluminium.

The rest of teh answers I will leave to others but on my 50's 4A the screws were slot top wood screws (original).

I just happen to be in UK at present and acquired what looks like an original tool roll (or close to it). It is tared burlap I believe, does anyone have experience in giving new life to the stiffness in the old burlap? - It is not bad but could be better.
cdk84
Posts: 254
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First Name: David

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by cdk84 »

Hi Darcy,

Yes, you are extremely fortunate to have found an original tool roll. Excellent!

Your Singer tool roll can be treated to improve its flexibility. The best way I know of restoring [some] pliability to tar treated burlap is to expose it to very warm, not hot, humidity.

To accomplish this you could use:

*one 5 gallon plastic bucket w lid (alternate: kitty litter bucket or two Pyrex baking dishes as top and bottom)

*(if using baking dishes, Plastic package tape should be used to seal the gap between the dishes during treatment)

*Plastic- or powder-coated oven rack that fits in the bottom of the bucket/dish, best with 1-2" legs (if you don't have a baking rack with legs, you can use half a dozen clean coffee cream containers under a flat rack)

*thermometer (or your fingers, but they're rather precious..)

*tea kettle

*distilled water

*timer

The procedure would be:
1) to put on the kettle
2) place the bucket in a warm place where it will stay hot and not need to be moved (in summer, attics are great; in winter, cellars)
2) pour 1/2 to 3/4" hot (definitely not boiling!) water into the bottom of the bucket
3) place the rack in the bucket, legs down
3a)NB: leave sufficient distance between the water and rack so there's no possibility of direct water contact
4) test the temp with either your fingers (grassroots approach) or the thermometer: no higher than 110 deg F
4a) 110 degrees is the equivalent of a really hot bath
5) place the tool roll, upright, on the rack on one of its short sides
5a) prop as needed with inert / plastic materials (water bottles, plastic silverware) to prevent contact with the side of the bucket
6) Gently place the lid on the bucket and leave in position
7) make a cup of tea with the remaining water
8) check in an hour, trying, again gently
, to see if the tool roll is a bit easier to bend*
8a) *choose a large dimension for this test, ie: one of the longitudinal folds of the roll where the roll has presumably been frequently folded. If you test at a corner it may crack the tar and/or the burlap, or cause a complete break (!)
9) repeat as needed, two or more times, allowing at least an hour or two for each 'treatment'
10) remove the water from the bucket, leaving the rack
11) allow the tool roll to 'dry' --more accurately acclimate-- in the bucket overnight: the key here is slow drying
12) again, gently test how easily the roll can be folded, along a long, previously folded dimension

If the roll is really reticent to relax, you can try placing it flat on the rack, with something inert --start with an empty vinyl covered notebook binder, for example-- on top of it. Don't heap a bunch of heavy stuff on top: this thing is old and probably a little ornery about being folded by now.

There are other procedures for more friable or fragile materials. Start here and see what progress you make. This will likely buy you a little flexibility, but it may be temporary. If you get the roll too wet, it could lead to embrittlement when it finally dries out. (that's why you use distilled water: you don't want to introduce any more chemicals (water minerals in this case) into the fabric) Remember, this coated fabric is 60-80 years old. Tar can act as a preservative, but over the long term, it is acidic and its acids will break down the fibres of the burlap, itself acidic. These materials were never intended to last as long as they have, let alone remain serviceable.

By the way, it's likely that the water in the bottom of the bucket will discolor. Discard it if so, and re-treat with fresh, heated distilled water. If there's discoloration, it's probably a good thing. It's possible the treatment will remove some of the acids trapped in the matrix of the tool roll.

Patience is the name of the game. These recommendations are based upon training as an art conservator and will, if followed carefully, at the very least will not do any irreversible damage to the tool roll.

Very Best of luck. Let us know how it goes. We can revisit this process, depending upon the (degree of) success you have. One tool roll may differ slightly from another, partly because Singer likely used different suppliers, but also each roll has, by now, been affected by some of its (potentially damaging) storage environments for quite some time.

Hope this helps.

David
casadecabra
Posts: 88
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:11 pm
First Name: David
Location: Andalucia, Spain

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by casadecabra »

Hello David and others.

Re. your queries:

I only have definitive information about the front section of the deck. I would be grateful for more information about the rear section, e.g. the overall shape and dimensions, which tools were mounted on it and where.

1) Judging from the photographs, the screws holding the wood braces to the scuttle appear to be wood screws. If that's true, is the aluminum scuttle sheet mounted to a sheet of plywood?
Yes, the plywood is inset within the flanges on all edges of the aluminium trapezoid. If you cut the plywood to size first and anneal the aluminium it is fairly easy to form the flanges over the sides of the plywood. My original plywood was de-laminated,decayed and worm eaten but seems to have been 15 mm thick (I'm sure I have read somewhere that, historically, plywood was manufactured to metric thicknesses though often retailed in nominal fractional imperial sizes). The aluminium flanges are screwed to the plywood by a dozen no 6 x 5/8" slotted round head chrome plated steel wood screws, 6 at the front and 3 and each side, plus a few nails through the narrower rear flange.

2) Your pictures show the top with very helpful outlines of the tools that were mounted on it. Would there be anything to be learned from showing a photo of the underside of this piece, too? (the underside may show nothing at all) This part on my car has been replaced, or at least re-mounted (judging, again, from the screws holding it in place: they are chrome plated Phillips head screws which don't match other Singer scuttles) so I can't add reliable information on this topic, and don't think this part of my car is correct.
The underside of the plywood is quite plain except for 4 through holes for the screws which fix the deck to the frame.

3) It would take a bit of time, but would you be willing to measure the wood pieces on your scuttle top, as well as the size (length as well as diameter) of the clips that held the jack handle, starting handle, grease gun and other bits?
I am working on this and hope to be able to post some drawings in the not too distant future.

Best wishes
David Bayliss
cdk84
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:00 am
First Name: David

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by cdk84 »

Hi David B:

Thanks very much for the details you have provided.

Look forward to seeing what you are able to come up with. Trust you have seen David Swann's posts. He provided a tool list for the contents of the tool roll, and detailed dimensions for the roll itself, based upon the tool kit that came with early Nine LeMans (if my memory is right about the model designation).

In my opinion this kind of sharing is one of the great virtues we members can offer each other on the Forum.

Very Cool,
DarcyG
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:39 pm
First Name: Darcy

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by DarcyG »

Still away, but when i get home i will try and also post details and photos.
cdk84
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:00 am
First Name: David

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by cdk84 »

Hi Darcy,

Wondering what progress you may have made with your scuttle top. And your tool roll. Have you been able to soften it a bit?

Look forward to hearing how you are progressing.

Regards,

David
DarcyG
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First Name: Darcy

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by DarcyG »

Tool roll steamed as instructed and that made a big difference. I then found some very old sadle dressing at the back of the garage. So I took a chance and saturated it with the dressing and wrapped it in cloth, I have done this several times. I now have the tools (the ones I have) inserted, it is much softer. It is not as soft as I would like but I no longer fear the material will break up.

With the tools inserted it expands the pockets. So I am now just treating it with a rub of the sadle dressing and keeping it rolled and stored. I will get it out, take some photos and post next week. I am pleased with the result and it will look the part.

Do I have all the right tools, not sure but what I have I think looks good. I am only missing an original “Jack” jack. I saw one but didn’t have the funds for it at that stage, because of the weight the shipping cost adds sunstantially to the outlay, so I am still looking.

Currently focused on getting the seats made (upholstery later) and in position and then laying out the wiring, and then I may get it started!

Otherwise attached is a photo at this stage (about two months back). The wood dash takes the top timber trim from the sedans as one of the bodies I used was delivered according to factory records as a sedan to Liverpool UK and ended up in Australia as a rolling chasis. The car bodies could be built here to owners design, so while sticking largely to the british style, I have introduced a few customisations to keep it true to that original customisation concept.

My oil pressure guage was original but I had to reprint the dial, I have just recently acquired a fully original unit that I will swap over.
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Phillip
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Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by Phillip »

David,

Just FYI, your tool deck is not the same as the one in the diagram. Your 1936 Sports has the same tool deck as shown on my blue LM-SS in the photos (bonnet up -twin side-draught SU carbs and red engine block)

The really major difference is that your battery is mounted on the tool deck and not under the driver's floor board.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Phillip
Your Friendly Canadian Pre-War Singer Specialist, Collector & Historian,
Editor & Pre-War Registrar & Canadian Contact -NASOC
Singer Enthusiast for over 40 Years.
'28 Senior, '33 & '34 Sports, '36 Le Mans SS & Bantam
DarcyG
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First Name: Darcy

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by DarcyG »

Photos of restored tool roll as promised. Whether they are all original “Singer”. I can’t answer, but it is all period and I am very happy wit the way the tool roll restored
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cdk84
Posts: 254
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First Name: David

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by cdk84 »

Hi Darcy,

Thank you for showing the photos of your reclaimed tool roll. It's very exciting to see how effective (and successful) you have been in reclaiming the roll's function. Well done!

Clearly you're making tremendous progress.

I love the customized touch of the wooden dash top. It's great that you've maintained that part of the car's unique, local history.

Please keep us posted on how you progress.

Very Best from the freezing northeast,

David
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Phillip
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Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by Phillip »

Here's a photo taken some years ago by John Horne when some of the boys in ASCO disinterred the remains of a '36 sports Singer.
36 LM tool deck layout.jpg
What is remarkable is how original the tool deck is and some of the key components are still in place!

Of special note is the fitment of the Prima jack, which according to the parts manuals was supposedly replaced by the Shelley Double-lift, as also used on MG's of the period. We know that early Singer handbook photos and parts references should be taken with a grain of salt and they often used whatever stock they could lay their hands on, so it would appear the faithful old Prima might have soldiered on. My '36 Le Mans Speed Model also came with one!

Justin case, I grabbed a Shelley and handle at Beaulieu so I'd be covered either way...lol!

One of the changes from 1935 to 1936 was the placement of the battery on the tool deck instead of under the driver's floorboards.
Your Friendly Canadian Pre-War Singer Specialist, Collector & Historian,
Editor & Pre-War Registrar & Canadian Contact -NASOC
Singer Enthusiast for over 40 Years.
'28 Senior, '33 & '34 Sports, '36 Le Mans SS & Bantam
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Phillip
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Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by Phillip »

..and here's what that layout looks like "in the metal" on my 1936 Le Mans SS...
36 LM Tools.jpg
36 LM Tools.jpg (37.11 KiB) Viewed 3619 times
This photo was posted previously but makes good context with the layout photo...
Your Friendly Canadian Pre-War Singer Specialist, Collector & Historian,
Editor & Pre-War Registrar & Canadian Contact -NASOC
Singer Enthusiast for over 40 Years.
'28 Senior, '33 & '34 Sports, '36 Le Mans SS & Bantam
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Phillip
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:19 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by Phillip »

While I'm on a roll, here's a photo of the earlier type of tool deck used on the Sports cars from late 1933 to late 1935...
34 Sports_tool deck layout.jpg
34 Sports_tool deck layout.jpg (164.23 KiB) Viewed 3618 times
This car had been in storage for 50 years, but had suffered a rather crude engine replacement using an MG XPAG unit from an MG Y Type.

The tool deck was intact with all the clips and wooden fillets, but had been slightly butchered during the engine change.

Luckily I had enough spare tools, and other parts in stock to make up the missing items. This car is now back to 100% Singer as the factory built it back in late 1933! This was a test fit of all the components. The grease gun is not shown in this photo.

Note the circular hole (sadly) cut into the deck under the jack handle. This was done to relocate the brake fluid reservoir during the conversion!
Your Friendly Canadian Pre-War Singer Specialist, Collector & Historian,
Editor & Pre-War Registrar & Canadian Contact -NASOC
Singer Enthusiast for over 40 Years.
'28 Senior, '33 & '34 Sports, '36 Le Mans SS & Bantam
DarcyG
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Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:39 pm
First Name: Darcy

Re: Le Mans tools and tool deck

Post by DarcyG »

Thanks for the additional input, does anyone have an original jack for sale? And willing to send to Australia, at my expense? There was one on eBay recently but was taken off and they would not ship.
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